I think it is just starting to change if you go in the tech/startup world you can make more money ,developers are paid even over $500k, the difference is the culture they value your work. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China? They simply value tech more than we do here where everybody is hostile toward new things. Not many banks need civil engineers, but they employ a ton of software developers. It’s almost gone. Year after year, engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the U.S., both in terms of starting and mid-career salary. Those are the reasons I have anyway. Sound familiarity with various database systems is a must. Art by Judson Collier. I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes. This is an utterly backwards way of looking at it. Because of this, we can create very large margins! Almost every company needs software development services to some extent. And I think there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in salary? I’m an mid-career electronics engineer. The old hands: More experienced software engineers will start to see a higher hourly earnings rate, ranging from just under R150 on the lower end, to R780 on the high end. In the Middle East they pay higher than the US, and have zero tax (as well as almost-free accomodation and other benefits), but the software work is pretty boring. The translates to around $50k a year. From a salary standpoint, Silicon Valley is the clear winner, boasting an average income of $110,554 per year, according to data from Glassdoor. Staying in North America for a similar job would pay $70-75k. But even with six-figure salaries, many developers are finding it difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Bay Area. Press J to jump to the feed. Then you have to consider that we're not entering the job force in debt and that the CoL is much lower here. Demand is far too high. $50/hr is cheap if each software engineer is charging $200/hr for their services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Another way to look at it is this. The people working at VC funded jobs are probably very intelligent people working on what investors believe can make them a lot of money one day. Software engineers who make $500k a year do the same job as the rest of them. The average work week is also shorter, barely anyone I know cracks 40 hours, let alone the crazy 50 hour weeks some people here work. In honor of National Engineers Week (Feb. 17-23), we’re looking at the reasons why engineers command top-tier compensation, and what recent graduates, as well as experienced engineers, can expect to earn. Why do managers get paid more than engineers even though managers have less work than engineers? supply and demand. Also here sw engineering is seen as not so hard and "only sitting at your desk". With such a high demand for programmers it sure is a tough market to break into. I have engineer friends who do technical consulting. Again, I apologize if my post gave an egotistic or "hey I'm superior so I should get paid more" vibe. First of all, 80k is what a <10 years engineer makes. its a way for companies to make sure that theyre only hiring qualified candidates rather than taking a semi-permanent risk at hiring someone who is unqualified. Why do software engineers change jobs so frequently? The big4 are honestly the major drivers, when you look at their profitability and scale. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I'm sorry if I come off as a douche but I'm genuinely curious. Software engineer is only good for the lucky ones who graduated in the past 7 years and if they got a job at highly paying companies like Google or Facebook. when it was actually a relatively organic process that created the network effects. It has gotten to the point where engineers are seen as cogs as I can hire someone else to do the same thing, plus they are paid the least anyway so they are easy to replace. Americans, believe it or not, do work a lot more than Europeans. Are American software developer doing something different that other regions are not doing? New York? The software industry died with open. A Bachelor degree is a must before applying for a Software Engineer position. The answer is: they're not. Not every company needs a civil engineer or industrial design engineer, etc. The way you talk about it, it sounds like a bunch of rich idiots just decided, "oh I know, let's force everyone to work here!" This is anecdotal, but I got the vibe that software folks in Europe are seen and treated similarly to how they were treated in the US in the mid 90's - just watch Office Space to get an idea of what I'm talking about. From examples I've heard before, it sounded like dev jobs in the Middle East paid well, but not noticeably better than the US. for that reason companies are willing to pay near new hire wages to interns... making sure that the good candidates dont go to other companies. "If you can't do, teach... if you can't code, test" type of thing? Is test and QA really looked down upon like this? Then are are possibilities to earn much more. 3 to 7 years of Residency making 42 thousand a year. a doctor's office had a website (already amazing) which included an email address, nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. I’ m a software engineer with three years of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco. Even so, I’m glad we have so much choice. Exactly. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. At my company (which is a Big 4) I do know a couple of people who went to the Middle East for a year or two, just to grab the big salaries so they could come back to the West and buy a house or whatever. Python programmer salary in Sweden reaches $54,497 per year. Most of them are not in that lucky bucket. That’s about the top salary you can get as an electronics engineer. I’m glad we didn’t stop with jQuery and say, you know, that’s good enough. As everyone else... supply and demand. Developers are very plainly not engineers and can’t do engineering. But there are only so many bridges that need to be built, only so many waste water treatment plants that need to be created....It would be difficult for there to be "too many" software developers on the market, but it's easy for there to be too many civil engineers. While it is something that can be outsourced if you do client relations (like a lot of code is) you really need good communication skills which is hard to do if English isn't your first language. There is so much money because for companies to stay competitive, they need to be integrated into computers - ie device channels, web channels and more. Teamwork and communication skills are essential for such positions. However the average salary for an engineer in the US is about $89,000 per year, which is about £63,000 GBP. Every company has some sort of web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps. Is this just a bubble? Do you think I see anything but the tiniest sliver of that? Software Development is in huge demand for most companies, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers is hard, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers, and want to spend ~25% of their hours every week in front of a computer screen is hard. You've got it right when you say "compared to normal people". That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the world, at any price that will get them to work for Google. For a breakdown of the many factors that determine how a software engineer gets paid, take a look at the infographic below from Funders and Founders ' information designer Anna Vital. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely. Got any idea how to land one of those gigs in the Middle East? Some engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k (petroleum). Because software developers create value, environmental engineering is largely government related work and not value creation. Medical doctor - 4 years of Undergrad 4 years of Medical school. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. Even more anecdotal, but when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone. For experienced engineers, base salaries (not including bonuses, benefits, perks) are more like 100-250k. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but Agile is not software engineering. The average starting salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k. That said, Americans still make a killing that us Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. Supply/Demand curve at work here. Yeah, this. Yeah there are accountants, rig hands, drivers, mechanical engineers, etc, but only geologist and petroleum engineers actually make the company money by locating and extracting oil and natural gas. I did, however, negotiate my four-year initial stock grant from $150,000 to $190,000. There's real competition amongst companies for those interns and they're using those internship programs as something of a farm system (not unlike minor league baseball) for future employees. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. The average Python developer salary in the UK is $51,774. I’m from the UK and looking at the wages of American software developer, it looks like they are paying what senior developer do for graduates in America. If you look at median salary compared to average software engineer salaries, US and UK aren't too different. jokes on them, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans. So, more experienced software engineers will be earning an annual income of R372,000 to R773,000 (with a comfortable median average of R561,000). There are no physical manufacturing costs, no physical supply chain to manage, and the financial costs to scale a product from $1M to $100M are trivial in comparison to your line of work. Software engineering is a smart career choice – it’s one of the most in-demand skills in the world and American software engineers earn a median salary of $112,000. Almost better than every other place. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Google and Facebook employees … End rant. Economically, why are they paid so much more? But why are they few? Outsourcing the work results in serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and a whole host of other issues. Consider that mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Software engineers in Germany are paid $64,361. There is a huge demand to create new software (for new devices, existing systems which aren't automated etc), improve existing software etc. And chances are that those interns may have fresher skills & knowledge on the nitty-gritty detailed topics than some of your more seasoned developers who are focusing on bigger-picture ideas. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. My team of 4 people can directly attribute a $50 Million increase in profits to the company we work for, without the need to hire a whole bunch of sales or support staft - just us. Yet, less than 1% of the workforce are driving it. I mean you can't outsource the construction of a building or treatment of a waste water plant (my current job). It is common among engineering students to complain how hard the course is, and that we are all so tired of studying. And so, the salary gets higher and higher. Computers "are the future" as they say it. Should be proficient in software testing and debugging. Note: You can find this analysis updated for 2020 here.. Dev fell in love with code at a young age. I make $130,000, plus $47,500 in stock, for a total of $177,500 a year. Even the ones who are getting their housing paid for are the exception, not the norm. I'm interested. Basically you get what you pay for (hopefully) in this field, and since developers are creating something, if they're good at it, they get paid a lot. Other places like Canada and Europe simply don't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability. If you have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you're at a real disadvantage. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. There are many more factors at play. 9. The average salary for the UK? It'll make life starting out much easier. They have experience that puts them at a premium. If I worked as a GP I could get paid as much as £104,000 a year. You guys have a good day. Do you have any articles that talk about this? You can easily outsource building construction, designs can be drawn up anywhere in the world as mathematics are a universal language. So companies see benefits of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs. The crowdsourced data on levels.fyi shows that software engineers get paid extremely well at companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft.. Levels.fyi estimates that a Level 3 … 2016-06-08T14:46:03Z The letter F. An envelope. Even some internships expect a certain level of experience. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Short version: it pays to code. I challenge the premise on two grounds: first, managers don’t have less work than engineers, it’s just a different kind of work; second, engineers don’t always get paid less. I get paid £60,000 a year. I was just curious. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. From what I've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big. I respect the software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive. I didn’t negotiate my base salary. What can you get in San Francisco for $2,500? Please don't be offended. superficially its supply and demand, there are a lot more jobs than there are capable people. I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often. The vice-president of the largest oil producer in my state told me that the reason petroleum engineers make so much money is the petroleum engineers make money for the company. Dave Smith. That's why the best software engineers are difficult to find these days. I can't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems. By concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries. Not even being sarcastic. Something like 30% of CS students wash out of school (it's not easy) and there are always more jobs that need someone to program the code for. So on average an engineer has a 6 year head start. That's actually not that high. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. Overall wages in the UK are just poorer. Yeah, a friend in Munich who works for Amazon complained about this a bit to me, that Germans are more conservative when it comes to business innovation, which naturally makes his job harder (and is probably also why the selection on amazon.de feels several years behind amazon.com). What is the best city in the world for a software engineer? you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people with little cost, all of the cost is in the upfront work. Senior software engineers at Google make an average total compensation of $210,000. One of my friends actually has $75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he hasn't even graduated yet. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. Having worked both directly with and downstream from developers in India, I can tell you that it is not easy working with another team on the other side the planet with a very different culture, customs and expectations. I'm honestly just curious. Joe started Retire by 40 in 2010 to figure out how to retire early. Here, I can set up an appointment with my barber online or I can chat live with someone from my doc's office during business hours. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Outsourcing of software development has existed for quite a while now. However, the job became too stressful and Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38. "Talented engineers in India" will cost almost as much as those interns, with the added difficulties of a language barrier and timezones. Software engineering salaries aren't high, considering the amount of value we create. They just do it a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. White shirt, doing grunt work, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business. An extreme outlier. Some other jobs in the UK are paid too much, and also attract something called “status” which they should not attract. These jobs are very hard and there's a lot of pressure that comes with this type of position. Dave Smith. The rest of the US is likewise influenced by this dynamic. as for internships, theyre more of a 3 month long interview. Jun 8, … For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER.. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the … Last week Glassdoor published its most recent software engineering salary report. You should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position. * well, it's not virtuous if you're trying to afford rent there and you're not a techie, By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot, this doesnt really answer why activity was so concentrated... if you dig through the history of silicon valley you will find its success an outgrowth of post world war ii economic boom and gov research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(before_1970s), silicon valley: the birthplace of modern corporate welfare. The quality of the work also tends to not be that high. As to why engineers aren’t paid as much as lawyers (if this indeed the case), it could well be the just rewards for more difficult studies, longer work hours, lower starting salaries all within a … By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. A single developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER. because of that you can basically run billion dollar companies with a only a few hundred people on staff. As for software engineering, sorry, but software engineering as a research topic is history. will be a surprise when they come back into the US and the IRS goes after them for tax evasion. Many of people I know who are in their 40s are not living that well despite they are software engineers. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China. The US is usually seen as paying their engineers the most. They are more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat. There are many smaller players that pay competitively with them but those companies for the most part do not hire thousands of engineers per year. Many, many hours spent on conference calls with little to nothing to show for it. Supply and demand mostly. "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." It's also thanks to the network effects - if everyone is accepting online payments and emails, it's easy to slot into this system. As you can see, the 'selection' gets smaller and smaller. Yet there is still high demand for local developers. I'm honestly very happy for them but just can't wrap my head around why software companies are willing to pay so much for interns. I'm gonna get all A's while finishing my bachelor's degree. So my suggestion to all computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship. What annoys myself is how high expectations are for new graduates. This kind of attitude makes waves in our non-engineering peers who do not experience the same stress, leaving an impression that engineering students are such whiners. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Even if eg. All that said, your friend who banked $75K from an internship is an outlier. So an MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after high school. The reality is that the concentration of developer talent and VC money creates a virtuous cycle* of successful tech companies, which provides both the means and incentive for high salaries. EDIT: Thank you for the insightful comments. So 5 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and start working your way up. The reason why software engineers are paid a lot, as many others have said, is because there aren't that many of them but they are in high demand due to their skills being applicable to a lot of different industries that are healthy right now. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. I've been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the salaries are terrible. Now, developers are these people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50% to some really high limit.

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